Curse

Lady Lozza · Feb 01, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Now this thread is not intended to be a "post your build and we will discuss them", but rather a discussion of mesmers, the builds around, and how they fit into GW.

As we all know playing a mesmer is far from easy. The profession is much more versitile that most of the others and is most effective when skills are used that compliment one another. For example it is pointless to use backfire and then an interrupt.
For most of the part mesmers work best when their skill bar is designed with a very specific purpose in mind. For example, one takes different skills into UW than one takes in the Fire Islands. Yet even with a "balanced" build a mesmer can kick serious butt.
In game however, the problem most mesmers seem to have is that:
1) PvE players think they are useless, and
2) PvP players want 1 (maybe 2) builds: e-surge/e-denial

Now PvE players hate mesmers because they cannot see the direct damage they are doing, and PvP players want a certain build because they do do damage.
I suppose the simple fact of the matter is that players who have never played a mesmer don't really understand the point of a mesmer. A mesmer is not there to deal direct damage, they are there to make it easier for the team to kill the opposition, and they are there to prevent the opposition doing damage to their team. In many ways they are like monks. At first no one wanted to play them, they don't do damage. Slowly, as you progress through the game you come to realise that monks are a necessity, and in a way mesmers are too.

Now I know I'm preeching to th converted here, but the main problems that many mesmers face in PvP and PvE can only be fixed by us. I know that it is hard because I've been kicked out of groups because I didn't have the "exact build" they were after without a moment of discussion as to why they wanted that build, or whether I could change to that build. And this is perhaps the crux of the matter. Discussion is needed. You don't have to have TS/vent - though in HoH that is a huge help, but mesmers do need to discuss things (where possible) with their teams before heading into arenas or missions. Even a simple: I'm running with a Panic/Migrane/Block/Whatever build will do. Anything to let the team know what setup you are currently running and adjust, or ask you to adjust, accordingly. GW is, after all, a team game. Now 80% of the time they won't care. 80% of gamers operate under the mantra of "you do your job, I'll do mine". Of course we are bound to run into plenty of idiots who later exclaim, "you're a mesmer, you should have hex removal!", or "WTF! You should have //insert skill here//!!!". Most unfortunately these cannot be avoided.

Now I think a lot of this can be helped by trying to stick to some basic terminology when refering to builds. I suppose my main gripe here is that there I so frequently see people refering to the e-denial build as needed energy burn, e-surge, and mind wrack. This is a huge problem for those of us who play e-denial mesmers who know how to use other skills to do nearly the same thing. IMHO the classic "e-denial" build that seems to be going around is actually what my guildies and I call the "e-surge" build, and it's purpose is quite different to that of an e-denial build.

Now in my mind the purpose of naming builds has always been to identify them with the primary purpose. E-surge therefore is a build that concentrates on punishing an enemy for having energy, and for not having energy, and while it might have a nice little side-effect of being able to deny energy to the opposition - it isn't the primary purpose of the build. E-denial, on the other hand is the draining of the opposing casters' energy to prevent them casting, and no damage is necessary. In fact the next time I see someone saying that an e-denial build NEEDS e-surge/energy burn/mind wrack - in game or not - I might just have to strangle them. This attitude that x-build needs x, which is held by mesmers, does nearly more damage than those players running around saying that mesmers do no physical damage and are therefore useless.
As mentioned previously, mesmers are perhaps the most versitile characters in GW, and I honestly think it is about time that those of us who play this class give the builds names which are a little more in line with the actual purpose of that build.

Avarre · Feb 01, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Let me tell you a little story.

I once joined a PUG to FoW, using my normal domination-damage build. I left all my stats except fast-casting at 0, then proceeded to play as normal, calling backfires etc.

Not only was my attribute-set not noticed, I was congratulated for doing well versus the enemies.

The moral is, most people don't care what you do at all

An E-denial build is ANYTHING that resolves around removing energy, much as a healing build is anything that heals, regardless of whether it uses WoH, infuse, or any other setup.

The x-build needs x is not a mesmer trait. Long have the beliefs of 'you need meteor shower to be a good nuker' and oh, so many others I don't wish to list. If anything, it is less common for mesmer, because only we really know wtf we are doing. Frankly, if I was playing with a mesmer, I'd PREFER not to know their exact skills. Just that they're running 'interrupt' or 'degen' or whatever is enough.

Although, to be honest, the real reason mesmers are disliked in PvE has less to do with mesmer character capability than another fact. The reason people hate WMos is because of the sheer number of Mending paladins that are worse than the usual leeroying elementalist at tanking. The reason that people might not like mesmers is because the vast majority of them are the mesmer equivalent of paladins in terms of build capability. I apologize if any mesmers feel this way, and in no way am I placing myself above this.

Most of you would disagree, but I point to the story at the top of my post. Most mesmers effects can go completely unnoticed in a good PuG. I usually watch other mesmers, to get a feel of how they play as well, and 80% of them are just phantasm spammers.

I'm going to avoid talking about the PvP problem with builds as I don't PvP outside my guild often enough to give a good opinion.

kais · Feb 01, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

its true most people do not understand mesmers.

i, for one tried to get better with a mesmer in pvp( and still try :P) and had a hard time figuring out everything. as a heavy monk playing guy, i can say that mesmers DO something on a battlefield. having all my energy sapped in a second can reduce my ability to heal...
also, all people that think mesmer are only good at killing casters... they are wrong, oh so very wrong.mesmers have all the necessary skills to bring down pesky warriors and rangers( and soon enough assassins too).
mesmers are a very versatile class. if you re sick of interrupting casters, make a build to break warriors, and you dont even have to use your secondary class.
now i dont know much about the builds, but people dont play mesmers because they think they do nothing. when they understand that are not fighting machines, they can actually start thinking about all the builds they can make.
the thing about mesmer builds is that all the skills used are complemantary, and as you say it very well Lady Lozza, if you make a caster stop casting, you can NOT interrupt him.
since you really seem to know what you re talking about, i d like it if you would continue explaining all this about the builds not being named for what they should actually do.

Ado · Feb 01, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Hi,

very nice thread. I also believe that you can run builds with small alterations. Especially when you plan this be4 entering this can be very usefull. Bringing emphety to more effectively counter IWAY. Running migraine-interupt with conjure phantasm to stack hexes making it more difficult to remove migraine so interupting stays easy etc etc. But the thing is, like you've said, not many ppl play mesmer meaning in most cases that they don't understand how to make the skills most usefull. But this is a general problem in HA. Many ppl run builds which they've simply got from the internet, unwilling to alter them. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think about 80% of the ppl are running "pre-known" builds. I havent been in many parties where ppl try to come up with an altered build or completely new build. A mesmer skill like spirit shackles is great for instance countering IWAY and casters. Most of them don't even notice that there energy drops with 5 on every attack, preventing IWAY warriors using there energy skills like iway or tigers fury. Not to mention the effect it has on elementalists. But I don't see this skill being used often however. The anti warrior skills, sympathatic visage and smoothing images, how often do you see these skill in HA? There are so many builds to think of using "unused" skills. Especially the mesmer. It has skills the counter every class. A very versatile build could be:

-Symphatatic Visage (attacker loses adrenaline and energy)
-Spirit Shackles (target loses energy on every attack)
-Emphety (target loses health on every attack)
-Shatter Hex/Inpspired Hex (hexremover)
-Shatter Enchantment/Inspired Enchantment (enchantment remover)
-Energy Surge (target energyloss and damage)
-Energy Tap (energy management and target energyloss)
-Rez Signet (obviously)

Plz don't discuss this build. It's only an example of a build which is capable of countering any class at the same time.

When working as a team, the mesmer can complement other classes. Arranging their skills so that the skills of your teammembers can become even more effective. For instance a trapper with a mesmer using epedemic.

I could write a lot more about it but that would make my thread too long

message me ingame if you wanna chat about the beauty of being a mesmer.

Caged Fury · Feb 01, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I agree that the only way the perception of mesmers (whether PvP or PvE) will improve is by those of us who play mesmers do something about it. Before educating (lack of a better word) the masses of non-mesmers of what we are capable of, we mesmers need to know ourselves what we can do - whether we play on our own, do our own thing in teams or support a team.

I've been in pugs with other mesmers before and some have shown a lack of knowledge of how potent they can be. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all in the world of mesmers, far from it. I was one of those newbies who would throw Backfire on a spellcaster and then interrupt the first spell they would cast. I would throw Empathy on a melee foe and run away to avoid being hit, resulting with them stopping their attacks and making the Empathy on them useless *sigh* the list is endless.

When I started out as a mesmer, there wasn't much guidence about. There were loads of builds available but as a new mesmer most of those builds aren't useable until later in the game (e.g. the need of an Elite skill). What we could do with are good, experienced mesmers helping to train those new to being a mesmers. Provide brief, concise list of job descriptions for mesmers (I didn't know about the difference between the "e-denial" and "e-surge" build). No need to provide the full builds, just an outline of what roles are available and some of skills that should be taken. If someone asked me what build I'm using or tell me to switch to a particular build, my response will more-than-likely be... /dance. Yes, even though I've played through the PvE story (all the way from Ascalon City up to the desert doing all quests, mission and bonus on the way), there are still some things about mesmers I don't know. Staying alive and energy management are some things I'm still having trouble with.

Also, most mesmer skills compliment another but what are those, what work best together. Discussions of any complimenting skills can help mesmers become more effective. I read in another thread about Diversion followed by Wastrel's Worry - I've not considered this combination before.

Avarre · Feb 01, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

A snare facing PvE mesmers is that, usually, your skills are designed to shut down or cripple an enemy. However, once you hit the late/end game...

The enemy casters, even without energy, can still staff you to death.
The enemy warriors don't need adrenaline to tear a mending warmonk into confetti.
There are more of them than there are of you.
Natural regen / resist and huge hps turn degen into a mockery.

So shutdowns become uncomfortably useless in the face of enemies like The Darkness (it wands me for 90, I've never, ever even noticed its spells in the face of that), abyssals (removing their adrenaline and energy does about as much as removing the charge from a bomb falling on you - still get squished) and others.

With a good team, your lockdown effects are noticed and highly beneficial however. But in a PuG your lockdown is like spitting at a thunderstorm. And this is somewhat of a problem because what many mesmers hear is the wonders of 'shutdown builds' The problem of new mesmers not having a clue what to do isn't helped by the fact that there IS no build that is confirmably good to use.

Just to end, I've always considered the 'e-surge' build an edenial build, and thats what it is. It removes energy far faster than an energy drain build, and thus 'denies' energy quicker (and actually damages the target). I've never given a name to eDrain builds since the nerf, because not only do I rarely ever see them, I don't consider them anything different than a denial build.

Tanks with glads def and tanks with dolyak signet use two different methods to achieve a semblance of invulnerability, yet we still call them 'tanks.'

I prefer to call the two denial builds 'energy burner' and 'energy drainer', while both fall under the umbrella of 'energy denial.'

agentblade · Feb 01, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

the only grip i have is that it is hard for me to test out new builds with pug, i agree that the moment u play something that they haven't heard of before you're either kicked or asked to change builds.. there are times i just shout that i'm a shutdown mesmer and hope they dun ask me how i shutdown the enemy cos there are so many ways to shutdown the enemy.

like for energy denial builds, I can already think of three or four different builds that achieves the same thing.. it's just a matter of how you do it..

I like playing mesmers because a mesmer needs to really out-smart the enemy.. It gave me great satisfaction when I'm up against a good monk (and i know he's a good monk cos i've played with him before) and I still managed to shut him down.. his comment was i outsmarted him.. That to me is a wat a mesmer is all about.. to go into the minds of the player and outsmart him..

Lady Lozza · Feb 01, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

An E-denial build is ANYTHING that resolves around removing energy, much as a healing build is anything that heals, regardless of whether it uses WoH, infuse, or any other setup.

Removing energy in itself is useless. Remove energy from a warrior, what does it matter without some way of punishing them for having no energy? Remove energy from a caster has the more obvious effect of stopping them casting. THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ENDS.
E-denial shuts down casters. Period.
What my guild has taken to calling e-surge builds (but should be re-labled because they don't have to use e-surge) is the dealing of damage to those with energy and those without. IE a mesmer damage build. We run a very good "spike" build (2 mes) which can do a lot of damage to enemies (and players) who like to stay in groups. We use all the skills typical of a "e-denial" build, but we are most certainly NOT e-denial.
In my mind there is no point in spamming mind wrack on a monk. You are better spamming something which will help keep their energy levels low -> e-denial. A warrior or ranger can, however, be dealt a lot of damage by spamming mind wrack on them -> e-surge/damage build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The x-build needs x is not a mesmer trait. Long have the beliefs of 'you need meteor shower to be a good nuker' and oh, so many others I don't wish to list. If anything, it is less common for mesmer, because only we really know wtf we are doing. Frankly, if I was playing with a mesmer, I'd PREFER not to know their exact skills. Just that they're running 'interrupt' or 'degen' or whatever is enough.

True, it is not a mesmer trait, it is present in a startling number of players, however I have found it used far more often when refering to mesmer and nuker builds. Mesmer builds must have e-surge, and nuker builds must have MS. These views are held by both mesmers/nukers and other players alike and, for anyone who runs a "pre-build" a little differently it is a pain in the butt. It is a problem that has to be fixed at our end, so that when we say "I run x build" other gamers don't immediately jump to the conclusion that we use x elite. After all - mesmers are versatile.
By no means was I suggesting that you give your team your whole skills list, however telling your team you are using a build centred around "Migrane" or whatever other skill/build you are using, lets them know that you will be of most use against casters (or whatever). The reason I have suggested talking about the skill your skill bar is focussed on is because most players know 1 only a couple of mesmer builds (e-denial and interrupt) and that is all. They don't know anything about condition transfer builds, in fact a lot don't seem to understand the idea that e-denial can have more than one possible elite skill.
Like I said in my original post, most of the time players won't care but it is NOT always the case, and - more importantly - when someone later ask you why you are not doing x, you can tell them that you told them right at the start that you were using a completely different build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Although, to be honest, the real reason mesmers are disliked in PvE has less to do with mesmer character capability than another fact. The reason people hate WMos is because of the sheer number of Mending paladins that are worse than the usual leeroying elementalist at tanking. The reason that people might not like mesmers is because the vast majority of them are the mesmer equivalent of paladins in terms of build capability.

I beg to differ. Players still ask for paladins, they still ask for nukers, they still ask for monks, even though many have had a stack of bad experiences with players who don't understand any of these classes. How often, however, do you see players advertising for mesmers outside of PvP? And even in the arena you are still more likely to see an advertisment for a W, E, or Mo. IWAY has brought to light the usefulness of a necro (but only in a certain build), and the ranger. Mesmers are still shut out of most teams because players do not understand how useful a mesmer can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Most mesmers effects can go completely unnoticed in a good PuG.

True, but then most monk, necro, and ranger effects also go unnoticed in a good PUG.

It is not merely a case of e-denial vs e-surge/dmg builds. While interrupt builds are well named, degen and shut-down are not. There is a huge difference in a build made to shut-down a warrior and shut-down a monk. We need to make it more clear to other, non-mesmer, players (and, I think, to ourselves) what the purpose of certain builds are and start labelling them accordingly.

khaldryck · Feb 01, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I'll add my word about mesmers.
They have a range of skills so wide that you can play them against everything.
I first played a warrior in PvE, then after finishing the game, i started the mesmer. Now i played all classes as primary except for ranger and i know for sure that the mesmer is my favorite ^^

I don't use it correctly in PvP yet, i need more training.
(except as an interrupt with power block instead of migraine, but need no lagging else i'm dead meat).
You can ask all my guildmates, and none of them is gonna say that mesmers are useless in PvE.
with just a monk player and my mesmer + henchies, we are able to finish all the coops.
You just have to adpat your build to the mission.
Don't ask me my second class, i never used it...
8 slots is already too short for mesmer skills ^^

I think people have to play it as primary before being able to judge... but this is the same for any other class.

As for build naming ... who cares. Just find "intelligent people" that won't ask for you to be just an advanced henchies and choosing skills instead of you.

Isn't the purpose of the game to have fun ?

Avarre · Feb 01, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

In my mind there is no point in spamming mind wrack on a monk. You are better spamming something which will help keep their energy levels low -> e-denial. A warrior or ranger can, however, be dealt a lot of damage by spamming mind wrack on them -> e-surge/damage build

The proper usage of a domination energy burner is to reduce them to 0 energy, at which point mindwrack will trigger as an indicator. Recast wrack, and then burn them to 0 again, and repeat. By doing this, you constantly reduce their energy to 0 (hence the denial) and deal devastating single-target damage. This method can be applied casters and noncasters regardless. Spamming mind wrack alone is pointless. 'Energy Denial' means to restrict access to energy. Whether you do this using domination with surge / echo weariness, or inspiration with drain, is irrelevant. Whether doing damage or not, as well, is irrelevant, both tactics are still removing energy, thus giving them their names.

Then there is the e-surge build, typically used as a pvp spike, and has little to do with restricting energy. This, I would call the 'E-Surge' build, and has little relation to 'Energy Burner (domination edenial)' or 'Energy Drainer (inspiration edenial)'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Lozza

True, but then most monk, necro, and ranger effects also go unnoticed in a good PUG.

Excuse me? Did you just say that a Monk is not noticed in a good PUG. The effect of a monk is second only to that of a good warrior in a PUG. And regardless of a warrior's skill, they will not last without a monk in FoW / UW clearing.

You said a necro's effects wouldn't be felt? Ok, to a greater extent, yes. But in an average, cookiecutter PuG (echo nukers, the old setup etc) where mesmer effects are like a lamp on the sun, the effect of a good battery are immense. With the sizeable reduction in Eles, a SS necro's force is noticed well too. You're still correct in your statement however, it isn't exactly that well seen.

I agree for ranger, unless they're doing defensive trapping. But the ability for me to go into a game and use spells that do nothing is a testament to the invisibility of a mesmer above all other classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Players still ask for paladins

I have never, ever, ever seen someone outright ask for a paladin. We're talking about the same thing, yes? The warrior with no defensive skills, and mending?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

IWAY has brought to light the usefulness of a necro (but only in a certain build), and the ranger

Like I said, I'm keeping all my references within the realms of PvE, because that's what I know better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

lets them know that you will be of most use against casters

True, most classes will announce their setup beforehand. However, in PvE I try to never restrict myself to playing 'anti-caster' or such, I prefer domination conditional damage (empathy, etc) which takes advantage of one of the few AI mindsets left : attack to the death. It also is viable, when combined with other skills, against anything. For this reason I never announce what I'm doing, and I've never been asked why I'm not doing anything, since I bring hex removal, interrupts, caster-hate and melee-hate, at the expense of specializing into a particular role.

Because mesmers can do anything, some people expect us to do everything. This is inescapable, so it's best to find a build that balances everything best. After all, getting into a PuG is the hardest part of playing a mesmer... usually once I'm in, people leave me alone. As you said, "you do your job, I'll do mine" .

Draracle · Feb 02, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

First, good post. I get sick of all the build posts that just rehash the same useless mesmer builds. A rapid fire mes/ele spamming flare or stone daggers is just a Elementalist with less energy and faster casting, not really a mesmer and completely ignoring the essence of being a mesmer. As for really mesmers, I agree that people don't recognise our efforts - unless they say "wow, we are pwning this FoW run! TANKS FTW!!!". Then I smile a little inside because I know that it was my shatterings and drainings that turned the enemy into puddy. And my backfire that kept the monk quite while his team died. Of course, among the better players you will fine mesmers a welcome addition. They will cheer you arrival because they know how much you change the playing field.

As for elites, I find that Mesmer elites are the spectacular jump from reg skills. Maybe because all our skills rock for the most part. But often I find the best elite to fit my build, not the best build to fit my elite.

I think one of the biggest problems is a one-size-fits-all strategy which the other characters succeed it. Mesmer really doesn't have any of these builds, instead people bring a prefab build and do a crappy job. Ussually because they want to see those huge dmg numbers that they saw with the Elementalist or the MM. Mesmers require creativity and a long learning curve. My build is always tweeking, adjusting skills and points to get the most pwnage, some times better, some times worse. If you want to come on the forum and look for a cookie cutter, one: they probably suck because most of the best mesmers I know don't just spit out their build, they are too proud of it; two: you will suck at using another person's build. I think people come looking for a build and then expect to go out and be a hero and all the end up doing is sucking on candy canes all day.

Lady Lozza · Feb 03, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The proper usage of a domination energy burner is to reduce them to 0 energy, at which point mindwrack will trigger as an indicator. Recast wrack, and then burn them to 0 again, and repeat. By doing this, you constantly reduce their energy to 0 (hence the denial) and deal devastating single-target damage. This method can be applied casters and noncasters regardless. Spamming mind wrack alone is pointless. 'Energy Denial' means to restrict access to energy. Whether you do this using domination with surge / echo weariness, or inspiration with drain, is irrelevant. Whether doing damage or not, as well, is irrelevant, both tactics are still removing energy, thus giving them their names.
Then there is the e-surge build, typically used as a pvp spike, and has little to do with restricting energy. This, I would call the 'E-Surge' build, and has little relation to 'Energy Burner (domination edenial)' or 'Energy Drainer (inspiration edenial)'

I agree that e-denial can be accomplished in so many ways (I still think mind wrack should be replaced but that is another, copletely different, discussion), however the attitude that bothers me is that people use this "cookie cutter" build (e-surge, e-burn, mind wrack) and then say it has to be the ONLY way, stuff anyone who does things a little differently. Actually it seems to be more like, stuff them, call them a noob and then kick them from the group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Excuse me? Did you just say that a Monk is not noticed in a good PUG. The effect of a monk is second only to that of a good warrior in a PUG. And regardless of a warrior's skill, they will not last without a monk in FoW / UW clearing.

How many times do monks get thanked for healing? If it happens frequently where you come from then I envy you. Monks (and mesmers) are the class of "no one notices what I do till I don't do it". Someone dies, blame the monk. Too many hexes on you, blame the mesmer. It is getting better for monks, certain for those of us to go FoW or UW, or even the last couple of missions. Privately I think this is because monks decided they were sick of people being completely unappreciative and refused to do the job when group members started yelling at them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You said a necro's effects wouldn't be felt? Ok, to a greater extent, yes. But in an average, cookiecutter PuG (echo nukers, the old setup etc) where mesmer effects are like a lamp on the sun, the effect of a good battery are immense. With the sizeable reduction in Eles, a SS necro's force is noticed well too. You're still correct in your statement however, it isn't exactly that well seen.

Necros, like mesmers, seem to be appreciated only in certain builds: MM, SS, and Battery. And most of the time they are using in groups because goups feel the need to take one along. The "group build X works therefore I must use group build X, no exceptions" mentality. Of course then you have the "monks can look after themselves, we don't need a battery" mentality, but that is another story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I agree for ranger, unless they're doing defensive trapping. But the ability for me to go into a game and use spells that do nothing is a testament to the invisibility of a mesmer above all other classes.

Agreed, mesmers most certainly have it worst out of all classes. At least people realise that monks (and batteries) are something of a necessity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I have never, ever, ever seen someone outright ask for a paladin. We're talking about the same thing, yes? The warrior with no defensive skills, and mending?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but technically a paladin is a W/Mo, right??? Yes people do ask for W/Mo, despite having all those very nasty experiences where they do bring no defensive skills and mending. A W/Mo played right is brilliant. Of course the problem is, as always that good players are hard to come by.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

True, most classes will announce their setup beforehand. However, in PvE I try to never restrict myself to playing 'anti-caster' or such, I prefer domination conditional damage (empathy, etc) which takes advantage of one of the few AI mindsets left : attack to the death. It also is viable, when combined with other skills, against anything. For this reason I never announce what I'm doing, and I've never been asked why I'm not doing anything, since I bring hex removal, interrupts, caster-hate and melee-hate, at the expense of specializing into a particular role.

Honestly I change my build depending on what I will be doing. I play interrupt and hex shatter in UW, and usually anti-warrior in FoW. At THK I usually go for a full anti-caster setup, and when doing so the other day I got the: OMG you don't have energy surge, you are a noob, line from one of the warriors in the group. It was a guild team and 5 of us had already done the mission, so we just kicked the warrior and went again. No harm done, but the first time I actually did THK with my mesmer, back 3 or 4 months ago, I would get that line and then be kicked from the group. This attitude I woulld like to change. E-surge is useful, but it isn't the only elite mesmers have, and in certain situations you may as well not bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Because mesmers can do anything, some people expect us to do everything. This is inescapable, so it's best to find a build that balances everything best. After all, getting into a PuG is the hardest part of playing a mesmer... usually once I'm in, people leave me alone. As you said, "you do your job, I'll do mine" .

True, the problem is - I believe someone else said - that people use the internet to find a cookie cutter mesmer build, without really understanding it. Like all those in PvP who say to play e-denial you HAVE TO HAVE e-surge, e-burn and mind wrack, and disagreeing with this makes you a noob.
The problem is not a clear as it seems though. On one hand there is too much information, on the other there is not enough. People refusing to give builds is just as dangerous as those who do choose to post them.
Perhaps what is needed is a nice little discussion of skills, rather than builds, their purpose, and the situations and combinations where they would be most effective.

Avarre · Feb 03, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

I agree that e-denial can be accomplished in so many ways (I still think mind wrack should be replaced but that is another, copletely different, discussion), however the attitude that bothers me is that people use this "cookie cutter" build (e-surge, e-burn, mind wrack) and then say it has to be the ONLY way, stuff anyone who does things a little differently. Actually it seems to be more like, stuff them, call them a noob and then kick them from the group.

The reason that the e-burn build has become the metabuild for e-denial is because, quite simply, its better than inspiration line. Insp has less drain, no damage, slower recharge, and the few good skills (sig of humility, spirit shackles etc) can be subbed into an e-burn build (which I play dom/insp for). Mind wrack is a devastating anti-monk skill, there is simply no way out of it. It's spammable, you can't cast without triggering it, you can't use -energy gear (the usual tactic versus e-denial) without hurting yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

How many times do monks get thanked for healing? If it happens frequently where you come from then I envy you. Monks (and mesmers) are the class of "no one notices what I do till I don't do it". Someone dies, blame the monk. Too many hexes on you, blame the mesmer. It is getting better for monks, certain for those of us to go FoW or UW, or even the last couple of missions. Privately I think this is because monks decided they were sick of people being completely unappreciative and refused to do the job when group members started yelling at them.

Considering practically all i do PvE-wise is 3-5 man FoW teaming, the effects of the (usually only) monk in our team are impossible to miss. You can't expect a PuG (these are the same people who spam meteor shower on running foes, don't wait for aggro or regen, and tank as eles) to notice what's keeping them alive. But I certainly notice, and I expect most of the people who post here would notice.

Oddly, I have never been called out for not removing hexes, even when I PuGed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Necros, like mesmers, seem to be appreciated only in certain builds: MM, SS, and Battery. And most of the time they are using in groups because goups feel the need to take one along. The "group build X works therefore I must use group build X, no exceptions" mentality. Of course then you have the "monks can look after themselves, we don't need a battery" mentality, but that is another story.

What many people don't realize is neither SS or battery are in fact builds, they are semi-skillsets each requiring only 2 skills at max (SS can run with AtB and SS, battery with only BR). A modded build using both SS and battery skills, tweaked with whatever the caster likes (enfeebling blood for warriors, defile flesh for shadow monks...) is a thousand times more powerful than a BiPer with no firepower, or a necro that just spams echoed SS, then whines for energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Agreed, mesmers most certainly have it worst out of all classes. At least people realise that monks (and batteries) are something of a necessity.

Monks shouldn't need a battery, having a necro with BR is useful for decreasing regen times, but if you really need energy boosts in battle... the monk's build needs some work (either that or your team's eles are tanking)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but technically a paladin is a W/Mo, right??? Yes people do ask for W/Mo, despite having all those very nasty experiences where they do bring no defensive skills and mending. A W/Mo played right is brilliant. Of course the problem is, as always that good players are hard to come by.

A paladin is a warrior/monk that uses, typically, mending and other spells such as breeze/orison to 'self heal'. This causes a massive reduction in points that could have gone to tanking skills, and usually the said paladin does not have any anyways, operating on the belief that healing skills = good tank skills. Yes, there are good W/Mo builds, however most of them are nearly pure-warrior, bringing res and maybe minor other skills such as hex removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Honestly I change my build depending on what I will be doing. I play interrupt and hex shatter in UW, and usually anti-warrior in FoW. At THK I usually go for a full anti-caster setup, and when doing so the other day I got the: OMG you don't have energy surge, you are a noob, line from one of the warriors in the group. It was a guild team and 5 of us had already done the mission, so we just kicked the warrior and went again. No harm done, but the first time I actually did THK with my mesmer, back 3 or 4 months ago, I would get that line and then be kicked from the group. This attitude I woulld like to change. E-surge is useful, but it isn't the only elite mesmers have, and in certain situations you may as well not bother.

Surge is, generally, the only good elite a mesmer would have if they had been sticking entirely to the mission path and not capping skills, because it is used (effectively) by Mursaat Mesmers (and thus most players know it by the way it smashes them). Unless you're using Mantra of Recovery (also an awesome elite), then I would have Surge, assuming I never left the mission path for capping. It is also pretty much the only good PvE domination elite at that time (Power block isn't till Perdition anyway).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

True, the problem is - I believe someone else said - that people use the internet to find a cookie cutter mesmer build, without really understanding it. Like all those in PvP who say to play e-denial you HAVE TO HAVE e-surge, e-burn and mind wrack, and disagreeing with this makes you a noob.
The problem is not a clear as it seems though. On one hand there is too much information, on the other there is not enough. People refusing to give builds is just as dangerous as those who do choose to post them.
Perhaps what is needed is a nice little discussion of skills, rather than builds, their purpose, and the situations and combinations where they would be most effective.

The best way to learn mesmer is to play it from the start... we aren't like monks, which can be learnt very, very fast with a good build. I dislike giving mesmers PvE builds because they should really learn what works best on their own.

Zilm · Feb 03, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I created a mesmer as my second char last summer, finished the game and what a joy to play the class. Been collecting dust ever since. Good thread but unless someone has played a mesmer they dont repect the class.

Regarding PvP, watch any of the top 100 GvG teams and guess what? They have a mesmer, sometimes 2.

holden · Feb 03, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zilm

I created a mesmer as my second char last summer, finished the game and what a joy to play the class. Been collecting dust ever since. Good thread but unless someone has played a mesmer they dont repect the class.

Regarding PvP, watch any of the top 100 GvG teams and guess what? They have a mesmer, sometimes 2.

monks respect the class. they know.
i've seen warriors ragequit because of what a mesmer did to him. necros and eles are sitting ducks with the long cast times of most spells. they know energy surge/energy burn/power leak/power spike very well. i'm not sure if there is another spell that would bother a ranger more than spirit shackles.

they may not all respect the mesmer class but if they hate it isn't that enough?

i've been messing with sig of midnight/plague touch lately. i find myself just running around putting blind on wammos and rangers while the rest of my party does the damage. almost as irritating as a runner but not quite. i do like to make them swear at me. call me noob. 'you use empathy....fukin noob'. or shatter his mending for over 100 damage.

what else can you ask for from this game. a wammo calling a mesmer noob is fan tastic.

animeba · Feb 03, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Mesmer in pve & pvp are 2 seperate issues.
In pvp:
When you join a pvp group, you will usually be playing an energy denial build or enchantment stripping build. You should follow the group leaders suggestions and change your skillbar according to the groups needs. This isn't a place to assert the superiority of your own build.

In pve:
Primary mesmer: unfortunately not very useful. Secondary mesmers can accomplish everything that primary mesmers can. Fast casting is really not needed because of few enemy interrupts.

Secondary mesmer: enormously useful. Provides mantra to reduce damage, & distortion to avoid hits.

================================================== ======
I have often tried to give mesmers a chance, but they often fail with great disappointment. The last mesmer in my pug fow group used chaos storm and had no hex removal for warriors. The typical mesmer in pve is interrupt (backfire, power leak/spike) or just simple degen. Rangers will do better interrupt mesmers & warriors will be better then degen mesmers. I really wish mesmers would think of more creative and useful builds.

holden · Feb 03, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

Mesmer in pve & pvp are 2 seperate issues.
In pvp:
When you join a pvp group, you will usually be playing an energy denial build or enchantment stripping build. You should follow the group leaders suggestions and change your skillbar according to the groups needs. This isn't a place to assert the superiority of your own build.

this is only true if the leader knows what the hell he's doing. if the mesmer is good he knows more about other professions and skills than most on the team.
i deny energy and strip enchantments. not one or the other. i'll also keep the warrior from doing much damage. mesmers aren't one sided.

In pve:
Primary mesmer: unfortunately not very useful. Secondary mesmers can accomplish everything that primary mesmers can. Fast casting is really not needed because of few enemy interrupts.

Secondary mesmer: enormously useful. Provides mantra to reduce damage, & distortion to avoid hits.[/QUOTE]-is this the only reason mesmer secondary is useful? mantras and distortion?

you said some crazy shit here. this is all just your opinion. you shoudn't say primary mesmer is not useful and rest your case on fast casting not being needed.

================================================== ======
[/QUOTE]I have often tried to give mesmers a chance, but they often fail with great disappointment. The last mesmer in my pug fow group used chaos storm and had no hex removal for warriors. The typical mesmer in pve is interrupt (backfire, power leak/spike) or just simple degen. Rangers will do better interrupt mesmers & warriors will be better then degen mesmers. I really wish mesmers would think of more creative and useful builds.[/QUOTE]

there are so many monks that suck, have shitty builds, use heal party, on and on. so many warriors that bring earthquake. so many necros that are nothing but 10 energy, 2 second cast time degen. if the mesmer brings backfire and interrupts he's probably a noob. same with chaos storm. but players playing noob builds doens't mean the profession is weak.

rangers will do better than interrupt mesmers-full on interrupt rangers are pretty strong but it's still just your opinion.
warriors will be better than degen mesmers??? degen mesmer is a rookie build. new guys like it. it seems like a lot of damage. i haven't ran degen for months.

forgive me if i'm wrong but it sounds like you're putting the useless blanket over all mesmers because you didn't succeed at it. to me it does not sound like you are very familier with the mesmer class at all.

Avarre · Feb 03, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

I have often tried to give mesmers a chance, but they often fail with great disappointment. The last mesmer in my pug fow group used chaos storm and had no hex removal for warriors. The typical mesmer in pve is interrupt (backfire, power leak/spike) or just simple degen. Rangers will do better interrupt mesmers & warriors will be better then degen mesmers. I really wish mesmers would think of more creative and useful builds.

That's what I said above... if you read the posts. The typical mesmer is to mesmers what a paladin is to a warrior. If I was to judge on PuGs only, I would have written mesmers off long ago. However, your vast assumption is that because random PuG mesmers play degen/dom nuker/interrupt (all horrific classes in PvE), that all do.

What has been said that is true, in my experience :

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

Rangers will do better interrupt mesmers

its true, get over it, distracting shot is better than what we get. We get powerblock to disable, 15e interrupt, only for spells, recharges slower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

degen mesmer is a rookie build

absolutely, because it is one of the first spells you get, conjure seems like a badass spell at the start. It certainly doesn't stay that way. More discussion on the weaknesses / strengths of degen is in the 'Domination or Illusion' thread.

It's because of mesmers that think conjure is the best spell ever that so many are perceived as weak... if you want degen on foes, play a necromancer.

What isn't true:

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

if the mesmer brings backfire and interrupts he's probably a noob

damnit people, the whole niceness of having a mesmer is to wreck havoc on multiple targets. Backfire on one shadow monk, interrupt the second. This isn't PvP where you focus a lockdown on one thing. Now using them on the same target, that is different, but you're referring to bringing both, which is just being smart...

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

Primary mesmer: unfortunately not very useful. Secondary mesmers can accomplish everything that primary mesmers can

By your reckoning, ALL primaries are useless. Considering any good character should have self-maintained energy, a Me/E (for example) should make just as good a nuker as an ele. After all, extra energy is no issue when you know how to balance your energy pool!

Use your brain. More powerful spells are important, and not depreciating your own primary just so you can get a 10 second conjure on your beloved ele or whatever.

In summary;

Comparing PuG mesmers and the good mesmer players that have played that class for a long time is like comparing a Paladin and Racthoh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

this is only true if the leader knows what the hell he's doing. if the mesmer is good he knows more about other professions and skills than most on the team.
i deny energy and strip enchantments. not one or the other. i'll also keep the warrior from doing much damage. mesmers aren't one sided.

Absolutely. Unlike eles that, if set to 'nuker', have to fill a skillbar with nuking skills, most mesmer 'builds' aren't a full skillbar setup. Asking someone to make an 'interrupter' in PvE is even more redundant for this... bring Cry, guilt, maybe conundrum/migrane, and you have enough interrupts to play havoc, especially if packing Mantra of Recovery.

To end, animeba, play a mesmer properly for yourself for awhile, then call us useless. I see idiotic PuG mesmers all the time too, it doesn't make me any less effective.

holden · Feb 03, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

what i meant with the noob comment was the backfire with interrupts is a little redundant. im with you on the dual targets.

LouAl · Feb 03, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

I have had a good read here, and, happily, all of my major concerns with above posters were already addressed by others. I do want to reiterate to animeba that mesmer primary isn't any more/less useful than any other primary. It is really just being ignorant to claim that it so. I also think that bringing a set of skills that a party leader tells you to is foolish. If you haven't practiced with it you will be a wasted, or worse detrimental, character slot. Always bring what you are comfortable with, but try to add in a few skills here and there that are suggested by others.

On to other things...

I have been playing mesmer from the start and I agree that there is some mad mesmer hate out there (I did get yelled/cussed at and called a noob the other day on my monk for not keeping a teammate alive even after healing him for about 800 points in a few seconds, oh well). I would love it if that were not so, but it is one of the things that comes with a VERY subtle set of skills. By this I mean that it is hard to compliment someone if the enemy's health bar just has a small purple arrow on it, it hardly seems like something that is worth complimenting, but that small pruple arrow could mean any number of great hexes crippling that enemy.

I am not really sure what 'builds' to discuss in this thread because my skills change every time I hit a town. That is possibly the thing I love the most about my mesmer; I am forced to think about what I will face, and not just to be effective but to stay alive at all.

I was trying to come up with a new set of skills the other day and one kept coming back and telling me to put it in my skill bar, Ether Lord. I have generally stayed away from it in the past because of the misleading energy cost (5e but consumes all remaining energy). I really hate that it could potentially cost me about 50e if I wasn't paying attention. I guess I need to keep paying attention.

ramble ramble ramble

anyway good thread